Author Topic: Re: Tips for capping with gelatin  (Read 9452 times)

Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2015, 04:30:41 AM »
Yes, that would be quite interesting to find out. Cleaning the electrodes several times is a bit of an annoyance, as well as a loss of time. A liter of 320 ppm with 15 mA takes 5h 20 mins., meaning cleaning 11 times, if one were to follow Kephra's recommendation of cleaning every 30 mins.
Actually, I cheated a little on the first batch, and instead 3x I cut it down to 2x (minutes 0 and 43), and the result was still very good. It would be good to know if there are any more downsides besides flaking (that can be filtered?)

Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2015, 04:40:52 AM »
If one were after saving time, what is the highest possible mA generator that still makes good colloidal silver with our simple setup?

Offline drewcifer

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2015, 05:48:55 AM »
When it comes to the amount of current you can run, it has a lot to do with the size of your anode (obviously.) Kephra has stated here many times that with sufficient stirring and anode size you can crank up the amps pretty high. The problem occurs when you start considering adding more than the recommended 1 ml per liter of electrolyte in order to boost the conductivity of your cell. If you were running insufficient voltage and trying to reach high amperage (say 60 or more mA's) you might find yourself tempted to simply add more electrolyte to get to your desired current. Kephra once replied to one of my questions of a similar nature that you might consider cranking up the voltage instead (then you wouldn't need to add extra electrolyte.)

I think a good question to ask is how much newly formed silver hydroxide (based on unusually high mA's of 20-80) at a given temp. (say 160 degrees F.) in our environment of reducer and capper can be dissolved into it's ionic state and reduce before the whole process is overwhelmed resulting in too much silver oxide being produced/dissolved relative to how fast it can be reduced/capped.
'Bohr was inconsistent, unclear, willfully obscure and right'
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Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2015, 06:26:22 AM »
Kephra said that the amount of 1M electrolyte per liter is fixed, regardless of the ppm, so no problem there.

I had a 1 oz. 9999 silver bar rolled into at least 3 times its original size. It's now thin enough that you can shape it round like the beaker. You can see some of it sticking out of the water in the above pics. So the question is still how high we could go with the mA's and 9V batteries, and still proven to deliver the same good result as say with 15 mA.
Or could a silvertron help?
5 hours and 20 minutes for a batch and 11 times cleaning is a lot. Cutting this into half or less would already help a lot.

Offline kephra

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2015, 01:29:06 PM »
Peri, experiment.  Start at 1 mA per square centimeter of anode.  You know how to evaluate your results already.  I think you will have to clean your electrodes more frequently at higher current though.



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Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2015, 03:46:50 PM »
I have about 40 sq. cm of effective submerged anode area, on one side. But what I wanted to know was if it's possible to order a higher mA generator, up to max. how many mA that still makes the same good colloidal silver like the 15 mA generator? The purpose is to save time for large 320 ppm batches. A 2 liter batch would take about 11 hours.

Cleaning more frequently sounds logical, as more silver is released from the anode, turning it black sooner. How frequently compared to the 30 mins. with the 15 mA generator?
 
My anode is normally getting black only near the edges, and very little inside. If some part of the anode was already overly black, would that cause silver to be released from areas that are still white?

Also, would the colloidal silver suffer in any way if the electrodes were not cleaned at all or not frequently enough?

Offline drewcifer

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 05:36:15 AM »
What happens if you don't clean the electrodes during a 320ppm run? Kephra already says that he filters the resultant product. What am I missing? Assuming you'll be filtering regardless, why should we clean the anode? Does the black flaky stuff interfere with the final PPM amount? I think I read somewhere on this forum that it doesn't (the junk on your cathode does however, but that shouldn't be a problem using sodium carbonate.)

I don't mind spending a couple bucks at the dollar store for a brand-new 36V power supply (4-9v's only $2.) Can I still use this setup to run relatively high mA's of say (40-80 mA's, assuming I have a huge anode) even if I only get a few runs because of the drain problem Kephra alludes to? And if I'm using rechargeable 9V's is this even less important of a concern? How much current could I run using the 7805 if I wasn't too concerned with battery capacity? If my cheapo batteries had a 450mA capacity, shouldn't I expect 10 hours @ 45 mA's (.75 liters at 15mA's=240 minutes for 320ppm | At 45mA's that's 1/3 the time ... so 750ml in 80 minutes (@45mA's.) So, approx. (7 x 750ml batches) for a set of batteries that cost $2. That seems reasonable, but if I were going to do a lot of batches, I'd see where you'd either want rechargeable batteries, or a plugin solution.

@Kephra, have you ever considered building simple "ready to go" current limiting circuits that just do that simple function without the "full-solution" complexity that obviously goes into your production units? If you could, for instance, offer folks simple, yet elegant,  current limiter circuits "no frills style."

I bet people would line-up to buy your simple 2-transistor current limiting design at various pre-determined or variable mA outputs. A "no-frills" offering. If such a simple yet indispensable component could come to market for around $20 bucks, I bet you'd sell the hell out them.

Even though you obviously sell a very quality fully contained system, some folks, as you know, are more "do it yourself types" but wouldn't hesitate buying certain critical components. For instance, how many folks here read these posts and decide they need a magnetic stirrer/heater or current limiting diodes and then simply go out and buy one on ebay or whatever (because they consider it absolutely necessary.)

 I suspect many of these same folks, lacking any electronics background, would easily prefer to just buy the darn current regulator circuit (IF ONLY SOMEONE SOLD THEM, and they were reasonably priced.)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 07:35:34 AM by drewcifer »
'Bohr was inconsistent, unclear, willfully obscure and right'
'Einstein was consistent, clear, down to earth and wrong'
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Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2015, 06:40:46 AM »
If there are no stronger generators available, then I'll make do with what's available. Is the strongest mA in the Silvertron also 15?

Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2015, 06:42:50 AM »
Have just noticed that the "20 ppm" diluted sample in the picture above is wrong. I was in 320 mode and diluted it with 15 parts of water, instead of 7 parts. What I made was 500 ml of 160 ppm. Today I diluted it correctly  7+1, and the color looked dark, at least like 40 ppm, so I mistakenly added another 8 parts of water to make it look like the regular yellow.
Only then did I realize that the darker color must be due to the gelatin coating. Is it correct that gelatin capped 20 ppm colloidal silver looks like regular 40 ppm or even slightly stronger?

Offline kephra

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2015, 12:25:50 PM »
The gelatin capping darkens the solution because of the weight of the gelatin molecules dragging on the surface electrons of the particle.  This is normal.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2015, 01:17:33 PM »
The problem occurs when you start considering adding more than the recommended 1 ml per liter of electrolyte in order to boost the conductivity of your cell.

Actually, that wouldn't be such a big problem. In my early days of colloidal silver making I had misunderstood something about the voltage... that the best result would come when it was just above 10, and that could be achieved by adding electrolyte. At that time I didn't know about the 1 ml/L recommendation, so I just kept dumping electrolyte into the brew until the voltage went near 10. That could be 50 drops  or more, meaning about 2.5 ml/L, and the colloidal silver still came out perfectly yellow and clear. Although now I stick strictly to the 1 ml limit, there seems to be some allowance there.



Offline kephra

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2015, 01:22:58 PM »
Quote
Although now I stick strictly to the 1 ml limit, there seems to be some allowance there.
Too much electrolyte reduces the long term stability of uncapped 20 ppm colloidal silver because it lowers the particles Zeta potential.  It shorts out the particles electrical charge.  I doubt it would hurt the gelatin capped colloidal silver because gelatin is a steric stabilizer which does not rely on Zeta potential to keep the particles apart. 

The other bad thing about too much electrolyte is that the pH would be higher, and as the pH goes up, the solubility of silver  oxide goes down.

There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline kephra

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2015, 07:52:35 PM »
Quote
YES, that sounds incredibly reasonable!
But in fact it cost me more than that to make it.  I only made one like that.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline Bobby

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2016, 05:07:20 AM »
Kephra,

  I have 2 questions on your earlier correction (Updated 20Dec15).  I don't know why I'm not seeing it.  I'm probably going to be embarrassed after this. But I gotta ask it.

  In the Example 2...Where did the 160000 come from in the 1000*40/160000 = 125 milligrams?

  And the same question on later amount of reducer. PPM*millililers/16000. Where does the 16000 come from?

Thanks, Bobby
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Offline peri1224

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Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2016, 05:53:03 AM »
Actually, 40 * 1000 = 40,000 / 160,000 = 0.25, not 125