Author Topic: Re: Tips for capping with gelatin  (Read 9448 times)

Offline peri1224

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Likes: 0
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« on: December 20, 2015, 04:18:11 PM »
I'm preparing the details for making 320 ppm with gelatin, and tried to reconcile the formulas in your post:
250*20/160000 = 8 milligrams (on my calculator the result is 0.03125)
1000*40/160000 = 63 milligrams (on my calculator the result is 0.25)
Calculate minimum mg of gelatin = silver ppm X milliliters of water / 640000.
Using the 250/20 example, that comes out as 0.0078125, different from the first result.
Something is wrong somewhere, but I don't know what.

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 8883
  • Likes: 286
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
    • My World As I See It
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2015, 04:32:39 PM »
Whats wrong is that there is no exact amount.  I don't weigh mine, I just measure 1/4 of a teaspoon for a 250 ml batch.

If you use too much, it will start to gel, which you don't want.

It also depends on what brand of gelatin you use, because just like maltodextrin, they are not all the same.  I use Knox brand.

I should just delete that article or fix the math.

There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 8883
  • Likes: 286
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
    • My World As I See It
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2015, 07:57:19 PM »
Ok, I edited the article to remove the confusion.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline peri1224

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Likes: 0
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2015, 08:17:03 PM »
Thanks that helps a lot. Will follow this.
But sorry, came across something else that confuses me. There is something about boiling or not boiling that seems to be in conflict:
This amount will give good results even if electrolysis done at boiling temperature.
DO NOT BOIL, as the gelatin may break down and lose its effectiveness as a stabilizer.
Hope you can clarify that, too. Thank you.

Offline peri1224

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Likes: 0
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 02:58:11 AM »
Ok thank you, one more clarified. No big deal.
This one is hopefully the last, as I hate to be a PITA.
What I remember is that we can make IS only up to 20 ppm, and if it's substantially over it will precipitate because the DW is saturated That appears to be contradicted here:
"For 20 to 40 ppm, add the gelatin after the electrolysis."
Does that mean that the precipitation between 20 and 40 ppm is not happening anymore without the capping agent? If that is so, then we can make 40 ppm IS and sugar reduce it to 40 ppm Colloidal Silver? Much better if true.

Offline RickinWI

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 658
  • Likes: 6
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 05:01:21 AM »
 I normally never boil it or go above 180*F while gel-capping.  One time I got distracted and when I made it back to the hot plate it was boiling like mad & had been doing so for at least 10 minutes. At least 20% of the liquid had boiled away. THAT batch was definitely darker golden brown/Amber color even after I added the missing DW back in.

In an eariler post, (probably in a different thread?) I stated that I though going above 160*F would cause the gel-capping to darken the colloidal silver somewhat. I no longer feel that way so I retract that erroneous statement. New statement: As far as I can tell, anything between 110*F and 180*F for gel-capping makes no difference in the end product. Above 180*F I can't say one way or the other since I normally get it turned off by the time it hits 120*F --- 140*F.

I still stand by my other previous statement that it makes things work much more smoothly for me if I add the gelatin with the colloidal silver @ Room Temp and let it bloom a couple minutes before adding heat. Then I never stir it or do anything to it til it gets above 110*F and all the gelatin has melted into the colloidal silver. (I think it melts at about 102*F)   My objective is to keep all the gelatin spread out on the surface (without falling to the bottom) til it has melted. This is if you are using a hot plate or microwave to gel-cap. YMMV

If you are using a heated stirrer to gel-cap then this is N/A for you. I don't use one for gel-capping so I don't know anything about how that would work. I'm guessing it would work just fine at any temp. Many others use that method.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline RickinWI

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 658
  • Likes: 6
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 06:16:57 AM »
Ok thank you, one more clarified. No big deal.
This one is hopefully the last, as I hate to be a PITA.
What I remember is that we can make IS only up to 20 ppm, and if it's substantially over it will precipitate because the DW is saturated That appears to be contradicted here:
"For 20 to 40 ppm, add the gelatin after the electrolysis."
Does that mean that the precipitation between 20 and 40 ppm is not happening anymore without the capping agent? If that is so, then we can make 40 ppm IS and sugar reduce it to 40 ppm Colloidal Silver? Much better if true.

The solubility of silver oxide in DW is aprox 20 PPM at ROOM TEMP.   The solubility limits are greatly affected by temp. At 68*F (20*C) it is listed as 13PPM @ Wiki.  At 77*F (25*C) it is 25 PPM. And at 176*F (80*C) it is 53 PPM.

Extrapolating between those numbers, If you wanted to make 40 PPM then you could keep your temp above about 140*F (60*C) during the electrolysis and all the way til you get it reduced. Once it is reduced it is no longer silver oxide ions in DW so you don't have to worry abut the solubility any more. End of that problem.

BUT the long term stability of 40 PPM colloidal silver that is un-capped MAY not be very Long Term. At 40 PPM the particles are a lot more crowded in there than @ 20 PPM. That can overwhelm the forces holding the particles apart. So at lest some of the particles very well could wind up growing in size causing the color to darken. This may or may not happen depending on a few different things such as what you used to reduce it to colloidal silver, pH, etc.

Side Note: This long term stability issue is completely different than the solubility issue.

If you really wanted 40 PPM that would be for drinking then you could just gel-cap it after you get it reduced. That would stabilize it & prevent the particles from growing.

If you wanted to make highest possible PPM UN-capped colloidal silver (like for topical use) then you could keep the temp above 110*F (43*C) during electrolysis & until you got it reduced and brew it up to 30 PPM.  That should hold up long term (again, depending on pH & what you used to reduce it.)   You might even be able to push that Un-capped up to 35 PPM (with 120*F) if you used Karo as your reducer (but I'm not sure)?
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 8883
  • Likes: 286
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
    • My World As I See It
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 01:59:26 PM »
There is a reason why low ppms should be gelatinized after they are reduced.

Anyone who has observed the progress of making really high ppm colloidal silver should have noticed that the color does not develop within the time required to make 20, or 40 ppm colloidal silver even though there is reducing agent in the water.  Perhaps the gelatin works so well that the particles do not have sufficient time to grow at that stage, and the particles are too small to develop a visible plasmon resonance. 

That may or may not be a good thing, as the properties of nanoparticles depend on their size.  For example, 14nm silver particles block HIV infection by binding in the areas between the little knobs on the surface of the virus which allow the virus to penetrate healthy cells.  So much smaller particles would not have this ability to block HIV infection.  Also, really small particles may exhibit some unknown toxicity.  Because of this, I believe it would be unsafe to use.  If it doesn't dilute back to yellow color, you do not know what you have and what its properties might be.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline peri1224

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Likes: 0
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2015, 09:47:58 AM »
The solubility of silver oxide in DW is aprox 20 PPM at ROOM TEMP.   The solubility limits are greatly affected by temp. At 68*F (20*C) it is listed as 13PPM @ Wiki.  At 77*F (25*C) it is 25 PPM. And at 176*F (80*C) it is 53 PPM.

That is good info and explains why I never had problems going a little higher than 20 ppm. What is the solubility of IS in DW at 30C?

Re gelatin. Kephra says he boils the batch without problems, and I kind of agree with that... considering that gelatin is obtained by boiling it out of bones for hours. Why should a little more boiling hurt it?

Offline RickinWI

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 658
  • Likes: 6
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2015, 06:04:36 PM »
Those were the only three reference points listed at Wiki for the solubility, but if we look closely at the numbers listed we can probably come up with a close guess. The 5 degrees between 20*C and 25*C gives us an extra 12 PPM. (from 13 PPM up to 25 PPM)  But the 55*C between 25*C and 80*C only gets us an extra 28 PPM (53-25).  So the amount of Xtra PPM per degree diminishes the higher you go. If put on a graph we would get a curved line. If I remembered every bit of math I ever learned I could come up with the equation for the curved line & then find the solubility at any temp, but I don't so guessing is the best I can do now. My guess is that at 30*C (86*F) the solubility would be about 30 PPM.

Of course all of that is ASSuming the numbers listed at Wiki are correct. I looked around the internet for quite a while & could only find one source to verify those numbers. The only thing I found was a study done in 1926 that gave one reference point that was very close to the Wiki numbers.  Elsewhere on Wiki there is a solubility chart that lists 12 PPM @ 20*C. So best bet is to keep your temp a little higher than what you think you need for any given PPM. The pH level also affects the solubility.

Don't burn the Jello:
I encountered some problems when first starting to gel-cap my 20 PPM colloidal silver for drinking. I was using a hot plate rather than a heated stirrer. I was getting the colloidal silver warm first & then adding the gelatin. When I did that some of the gelatin would immediately clump up & drift to the bottom of the beaker in a sticky blob. Once it sticks to the bottom you have to boil it quite a bit to get it to melt into the colloidal silver since there is no stirring with the way I was doing it. The glass beaker bottom where the blob was stuck is probably much hotter than 100*C. My wife told me that she could detected a burnt or smoky taste in the colloidal silver back then.

Once I started adding the gelatin to the colloidal silver with the colloidal silver at room temp the gelatin would spread out on the surface evenly & stay there until the temp got high enough for it to melt into the colloidal silver gracefully with no sticky blobs floating to the bottom. Using that procedure I am guessing that I could boil it all I wanted with no bad effects since no gelatin blobs stuck to the hot glass.

The reason I started to gel-cap my colloidal silver for drinking is to protect it from salty acid it can encounter in the stomach. I have done many salty acid experiments & found that colloidal silver that is gel-capped @ 120*F (49*C) holds up to my salty acid just as well as colloidal silver that was gel-capped at a much hotter temp. So no more burnt Jello now. The darker color I was seeing was probably the singed gelatin rather than larger colloidal silver particles. Gelatin melts at about 102*F (39*C).  You can do it hotter if you want but there is no need to take it above 120*F (49*C) IMO.

I have found that 0.2 gm of gelatin per Liter of 20 PPM colloidal silver is enough to gel-cap it. That holds up to my salty acid just fine.  If doing higher PPM then you would need more.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline peri1224

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Likes: 0
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2015, 10:50:32 AM »
Will proceed with 500 ml 160 ppm colloidal silver, gelatin capped, and preparing:

500 ml DW cold
1/8 tsp. or 0.3 g gelatin. Add the gelatin to the water when cold and let it sit (bloom) for 5-10 minutes,
                                        then heat it to 60C until the gelatin dissolves.
2 ml electrolyte.               Add to the water.
1 fat drop 0.25 mg undil. glucose.    Add to the water.

Electrolyze for a total of 85 mins. with 14.2 mA. Maintain temp. at 150F, and raise it to a boil during the last 20 mins.
Clean electrodes at start and at minutes 28 and 56.

Stop electrolyzing at min. 85 and let it cool down.

Dilute 1 or 2 ml 16x with water and check if the result is the correct yellow color. Pat yourself on the shoulder... if the color is yellow and clear.
Merry Christmas.


Only the electrolyte issue remains unresolved. From previous recommendations I used 1 ml per liter of 20 ppm. That should make  0.5 L of 40 ppm. Times 4 is 2 ml for 160 ppm. If we can calculate it that way.
But there is a big difference between the 2 ml and 10 drops that are also recommended. The 10 drops never amount to 2 ml. So which one to use?

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 8883
  • Likes: 286
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
    • My World As I See It
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2015, 12:36:42 PM »
Always use 1 ml per liter regardless of the ppm you are making.  You should not increase it for higher ppms.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline peri1224

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Likes: 0
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2015, 05:18:58 PM »
Couldn't be happier with the result. Attached are pictures during and after cooking. The result is perfect yellow and crystal clear.  Just followed all your good instructions. Thank you very much. Will also use this from now on because of the acid protection.

Offline RickinWI

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 658
  • Likes: 6
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2015, 11:41:45 PM »
Always use 1 ml per liter regardless of the ppm you are making.  You should not increase it for higher ppms.

Yes, very important point. The electrolyte should stay the same no matter what PPM you are making. 

The thing that you DO have to increase for high PPM is the amount of gelatin because there is alot more surface area of silver particles to coat.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline drewcifer

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Likes: 7
Re: Tips for capping with gelatin
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2015, 12:53:17 AM »
I just finished a batch (320ppm) of 750ml. I previously did a 500ml batch and used 2 grams of gelatin and it seemed to do pretty well. My last batch I added an extra 1 gram (for the additional 250ml) and it felt like it was a bit much (a little harder to fully dissolve, etc.)

I noticed while referring to this post this morning that Kephra updated the math suggesting that there is no known exact figure and that he measures out 1/8 tsp for .3 grams. This got me thinking I might be able to get away with a little less gelatin. I was thinking about using only 2 grams for a 750ml batch (leaving out 1 gram based on the 1 gram per 250ml rule.) Or, if Kephra is getting away with .3 then perhaps even as little as 1 gram will work for (3x250ml) Anyone think this will be OK?

Also, if I choose not to fire-clean my anode during the entire run of approx. 3 hrs. will the worst thing that can happen is some flaked off black gunk? If so, could I just filter it through a coffee filter? Any other downsides?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 12:58:58 AM by drewcifer »
'Bohr was inconsistent, unclear, willfully obscure and right'
'Einstein was consistent, clear, down to earth and wrong'
—John Bell
(1928-1990)