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31
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by aquataur on March 20, 2024, 06:33:34 PM »
My edit and your message overlapped.

I must rearrange those things. Spoiled from my past experience (where you would wait forever) I probably was sloppy.
Yes I use two external meters for monitoring current and voltage.

BTW I made a pinhole in a piece of carton and put my headlamp behind it, makes a sharp slim beam...
No Tyndall.

Thank you for your patience.
32
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by kephra on March 20, 2024, 06:23:45 PM »
Make sure your sodium carbonate solution is 10.6 grams in 100ml of water.
5 drops exactly is the correct amount to add to 250ml distilled water. (1ml per liter of water....always)
Electrodes should be 37mm apart.  Different spacings require different voltages.
1 ma is really too low, since the cell is a resistance and the cell voltage follows ohms law.  So as the current is lower, so is the cell voltage. 
Use a smaller surface area cathode.  Yours has too much surface area.  Try 22 gauge or smaller copper wire.
It should immediately current limit, that is normal and you want that.
Did you check your current with a separate milliammeter?
33
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by aquataur on March 20, 2024, 06:02:40 PM »
I set up a batch with the self made sodium carbonate (anhydrid) according to the protocol. I have a Kern scale from earlier endeavours.
I did not have a syringe at hand, but put a few drops into 1/4 liter of DW preheated. Added the same amount of cinnamon extract.
I have modified my device for low currents (1-10 mA continuous) @60V

I was shocked when I inserted the electrodes - immediate current limiting. The voltage breaks down to nearly zero.
I raised the cathode but no matter how much I raise it, I cannot maintain 10V.

I don´t have a different metal (slim) cathode, so both are 5mm x 1mm silver stripes.

I immediately see some yellowing. Can´t be from the two drops of cinnamon. There is darker (orange) clouds around the anode, some stirring will be needed.

What can I do to make the solution less violent?

STOP. I noticed, that I had set the CC to a really low current, 1.5mA. Somebody had told me that even 5 mA may be too much, so I set it lower. I switched to 5 mA and now I am able to control the cell voltage with the cathode insertion depth.

Is there too much electrolyte? I double checked, I weighed correctly.
34
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by kephra on March 20, 2024, 10:16:37 AM »
Quote
On the other hand, sucrose is universally available so I may always resort to making invert sugar.
Invert Sugar is 50% glucose 50% fructose, so why bother to make it?  Its not worth the effort.

Quote
I found that there are numerous types of syrups, with "corn" as source material seemingly being a specific American obsession
Corn is one of our largest crops.  Glucose and fructose can be made with any starch, but corn is the least expensive starting material.  Its not an obsession, its an economic practicality.
35
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by aquataur on March 20, 2024, 08:15:23 AM »
Thats not the state of the art, its more the state of ignorance.  The plethora of disinformation (...)

Yes, sadly that seems to be the case. As good as the person is with the devices...
What irritated me was that several subjects were clearly not subject to discussion. On the contrary, a competitor (who admittedly appears fraudulent) is badmouthed endlessly to a point where they even erected a website for this. ???
But let´s bury this. Dwelling with this is counterproductive.

I found that there are numerous types of syrups, with "corn" as source material seemingly being a specific American obsession. All of them some mixture of glucose and / or fructose. I drop the subject.
On the other hand, sucrose is universally available so I may always resort to making invert sugar.

But since maltodextrin is listed here as a better capping agent, this appears the way to go. I take the 12 DE variety.

Thanks for your assistance, folks.
36
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: maltrodextrin powder
« Last post by aquataur on March 20, 2024, 07:09:08 AM »
Thank you for the good analogies. I can understand that ;D
I read in the other posts that you in your place only get a mix. This probably averages to the middle value.
Kephra mentioned somewhere that he does not measure maltodextrin anyway. He just throws in a spoonful and if there is any excess, the better. Basically what you say.
The stuff is really cheap to have too.

Sometimes it is not a benfit to have a choice...

Thanks again.
37
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: maltrodextrin powder
« Last post by Gene on March 20, 2024, 05:53:43 AM »
The higher the DE number the better a stabilizer the malto is BUT the worse it gets as a reducer. Reason being, a DE of 12 is 12 glucose molecules with the head end of one hanging onto the tail end of the next, rinse and repeat where only one "head" at one end of that long chain can reduce ONE silver oxide particle to Colloidal Silver. The higher the DE number the more malto you need to reduce a given weight of silver oxide dissolved in water.

The good side of a higher DE number is that the DE becomes a much better stabilizer for non-gelcapped Colloidal Silver production because the DE chains are longer where after reduction, the spent malto reducer crowds the silver particles and coats them, thereby stabilizing them where the more "stuff" they're coated with, the better they're stabilized. Makes sense, right?  If you dip something in really thin paint, after its dry its easy to scratch it. If you dip it in much thicker paint, after its dry its that much harder to scratch it as an analogy.

I have a friend in Austria (Vienna) who makes Colloidal Silver. I believe he bought some DE though I don't recall which DE number he chose.

If I had to choose, I'd probably go middle of the road. 12 should work as a good stabilizer also. Remember, the higher the DE number the more malto you need to do the same reduction than a lower DE number malto requires. Its all a balancing act.

IIRC, the individual that came up with the formula to compute how much malto you need figured it out based on a worst case - all highest DE number malto so if you get DE 12 and use that formula you will have an excess of malto in solution which will work out to your advantage to speed up reduction and also provide even more stabilization when thats necessary (non-gelcapped Colloidal Silver).
38
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by Gene on March 20, 2024, 05:39:00 AM »
Glucose syrup (which is NOT light clear corn syrup) has fructose in it. The only place I've seen that I can get it is a beer/winemaking supply shop.  IIRC, it has a DE equivalency of around 2 or 3.  Looking online, there are different formulations so its probably not a good thing to use to reduce with.  I have seen it in person. Its kind of a clear, thick syrup.

If you can't get clear corn syrup, maltodextrin works just as well. The only downsides are the need to use substantially more (which hurts nothing) to reduce properly and some people perceive a "taste" from maltodextrin they don't care for. I don't taste it though. Also, for the higher concentration of it in solution because of the longer chain molecules, it will produce a slightly darker result at the same PPM as other reducers. Its not significant but enough its noticeable.  If you use it and you're not sure, simply dilute a little of your result (if its over 20PPM) to 20PPM concentration and look at the color. If its slightly darker yellow than what you're used to, you're good to go.

Straight glucose powder (dextrose in food use) works too but its a little touchy given you need so little. Some have used it to great success. I bought a pound from the beer/winemaking shop when I bought a pound of malto also and I did try the glucose to reduce with but every time, I got a somewhat cloudy result. I never figured out why so I abandoned using it.  I do recall someone else here who tried glucose powder had a similar problem they never figured out either.

There was something called golden syrup somebody here was using which seemed to work for them but I've now stated my total knowledge on the subject (wink).

There are other reducing agents you could use including cinnamon extract (instructions on how to make this are in the Kephra's notebook section in one of the top pinned articles).

Another alternative is to make invert sugar. Information on how to do this is also in the Kephra's notebook section.  Basically its table sugar syrup (what they call invert syrup). This purportedly works well to reduce with also though I've never had the inkling to try it.

All you need to do if you're making higher PPM Colloidal Silver is to process at about 150F (hotplate with a good temperature control works just fine). You don't need special glassware (I use a 1 quart mason jar to great success).

When you turn on your power supply that feeds the current limiter which is connected to your cell, the current should IMMEDIATELY be whatever the current setpoint is. NOTHING "ramps". Aside from adjusting the current setpoint, the only other adjustment you can make is raising or lowering the cathode in the cell to change the cell voltage.

No magic, not rocket science. Some things may not be obvious but they're easy to figure out (or you can ask us if you're stumped).

What you've encountered with all the confusing information from all over the place is the same crap we all have early on... and then we found this site and learned the truth and realized that most "experts" don't know their arse from their elbow but for sure they keep telling you they do very convincingly(sigh).

Companies that make commercial Colloidal Silver equipment are in the business of making money and sadly many of these companies are scams that charge a lot of money for something you can build better yourself for a couple dollars.

As they say, caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).  ...Only YOU can protect YOU (sad but true).
39
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by kephra on March 19, 2024, 09:47:24 PM »
...
Maybe I should briefly describe the local state of the art. This may be of interest for you.
You run with either 5 or 10 mA . Don´t know which and when. Heat pure DW to the boiling point but then no more. If possible, brew in a double walled glas to keep the heat. There is a magic ppm formula but this falls flat, because it assumes full current. Unfortunately current rises slowly until the current reduction kicks in, which may take several minutes. Sometimes cut-off is never reached even after hours. No stirring, no additives. There is some who use pulsed dc (a la zapper), some single polarity (which sometimes produces a yellow result), some switching polarity. It is left totally unclear which is better. Devices go up to 60V (which is the maximum allowable voltage for home use) to get things going at all. Single polarity produces black or grey sludge on the anode. Some devices use a cathode different than silver, but in this case it is not a bad thing to stay with both silver because people are bound to switch to alternating polarity without taking care of that.
....
Thats not the state of the art, its more the state of ignorance.  The plethora of disinformation simply astounds me.

Its normal for the anode to turn black.  Its just silver oxide, and is easily converted back into pure elemental silver just by heating it up in a blue flame until the black turns white.

Without the sodium carbonate in the water, the silver that comes off the anode just plates onto the cathode as sludge.  The sodium carbonate stops that and keeps the silver in solution.  The corn syrup, or other glucose based sugars convert silver ions into silver metal which forms the nanoparticles, and also stabilizes their size.  The end result is silver nanoparticles suspended in alkaline water.  Just about all the initial lab testing which showed silver nanoparticles were an effective antibiotic used silver reduced with glucose. 

By the way, corn syrup is glucose and maltose.  There is no fructose in corn syrup unless it was added to it, then it is called high fructose corn syrup.  Fructose can be made from corn starch but it is a different process. 

You asked about maltodextrin. The DE number is the number of glucose molecules in the chain.  Maltodextrin is chains of 3 to 17 glucose molecules (some sources say 20 molecules).  Above that is dextrin and starch.  Lower DE numbers are better reducing agents, and higher DE numbers are better stabilizers due to their bigger molecular size.

As a reducing agent, maltodextrin has only 1 active binding site, so for DE 3, it takes 3 times as much to reduce silver as the weight of pure glucose would.  The good thing is that while there is a bottom limit to how much you need, there is no upper limit.  So its best to use more.  For this reason, I don't bother to weight it when I use it.  I just use 1/2 teaspoon per liter for 40ppm Colloidal Silver.

There is another DE number used, called %DE which is the reducing power of the molecule compared to glucose.
DE3 equals approximately a %DE of 33% to 39% depending on how the measurement was done.
DE6 equals approximately a %DE of 16% to 20% depending on how the measurement was done.
Normally the measurement is done by titrating a copper sulfate solution and the number depends on how pure the maltodextrin is (is it 100% the specified DE?)
40
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: availability of Soda and capping agents
« Last post by aquataur on March 19, 2024, 08:11:15 PM »
Thank you folks for donating your time to me. I well appreciate that. Our time is limited.

I have never heared those things about current and electrode size in my local "school of thought".
I think there is many things going wrong with that...

Thank god gave me the gift of being able to communicate with you in a common language (trade names and local customary names are excluded  :) ), so I can look over the pond.

Maybe I should briefly describe the local state of the art. This may be of interest for you.
You run with either 5 or 10 mA . Don´t know which and when. Heat pure DW to the boiling point but then no more. If possible, brew in a double walled glas to keep the heat. There is a magic ppm formula but this falls flat, because it assumes full current. Unfortunately current rises slowly until the current reduction kicks in, which may take several minutes. Sometimes cut-off is never reached even after hours. No stirring, no additives. There is some who use pulsed dc (a la zapper), some single polarity (which sometimes produces a yellow result), some switching polarity. It is left totally unclear which is better. Devices go up to 60V (which is the maximum allowable voltage for home use) to get things going at all. Single polarity produces black or grey sludge on the anode. Some devices use a cathode different than silver, but in this case it is not a bad thing to stay with both silver because people are bound to switch to alternating polarity without taking care of that.

There is one person who really understands the hardware side of it. His devices are unparalleld. But he seems to despise the "Boilers". He appears to be some kind of guru figure to the community.

Interestingly, all contact I tried to make with them was disabled by divine intervention. All things failed.

And then there is another guru who crowds disciples around him, who sells tinkerer´s boxes that contain nothing but a single resistor. The box is cheap, but not the electrodes made of unobtainium rare earths.

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