Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => SilverTron Notes And Support Questions => Topic started by: MomRosie on March 23, 2018, 02:53:07 PM

Title: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on March 23, 2018, 02:53:07 PM
Made 2 batches. The first was clear and I thought looked perfect. The second I reduced and came out looking like baby shampoo. I was so excited. Stored both in a dark cool cabinet. Looked in the cabinet today and they both look exactly the same? Color is identical?! They were both 20ppm. Where did I go wrong? Could it be that straining the silver through a brown unbleached coffee filter before putting it in jars caused the problem? I also used chop sticks for stirring the electrolyte. Everything else I followed what I've read here. 
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on March 23, 2018, 04:28:08 PM
Silver is so easy to reduce that the slightest impurities in you storage bottle, or production flask will cause it to reduce.  Also fluorescent lighting or strong sunlight can cause reduction.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 05, 2018, 01:20:12 PM
Made 2 batches 20ppm and 1, 30ppm, all 3 were ionic. Needed to use 5 drops of electrolyte to get any ma reading to show. (I first tried with just plain dw at cooler room temp.)
Woke up this morning and all have gone from clear to reduced?! I'm buying 2 different types of dw and alternating between the two to see if that's the problem. I'm rinsing my jars in a 50/50 blend of 91% alcohol and dw and then 3 full rinses in distilled water. They are as clean as I can possibly make them. What am I doing wrong? I'm becoming frustrated. I do not have a gas burning stove so I'm scrubbing my silver bar and wire. They are then washed the same way. I want ionic for topical applications. Mouthwash, nasal rinse and acne. 
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 05, 2018, 01:23:29 PM
And I stopped using the brown coffee filters. They did leave some color in a batch that I threw away. So, for now, it is all not being filtered.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on April 05, 2018, 01:41:57 PM
If ionic is your end goal, do not use any electrolyte.  It will start very slow and take a long time, but it will stay ionic.  I am starting to believe that the electrolyte itself is causing some reduction.  Did you use Arm & Hammer washing soda, or did you use converted baking soda?
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 05, 2018, 02:08:12 PM
A&H washing soda. I'm going to buy some baking soda and bake it off. Maybe that will help. When you say slow, how long before something will register ma? I didn't wait too long before I took off the lid and added a few drops of electrolyte. 
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on April 05, 2018, 03:08:45 PM
It will start very slow with very low current, but will build up with time.  Think hours instead of minutes.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Bobby on April 05, 2018, 05:27:58 PM
MomRosie,

  Just a couple suggestions from someone who has made lots of little frustrating mistakes myself. 

  1)  Don't rinse with alcohol, just water and DW.  Alcohol is a reducer also!

  2)  Don't use any metal to clean your anode and cathode.  Cotaimanates the silver on the rods!

  3)  Don't use any electrolyte at all to make your ionic silver.  It will take hours!

  4)  Don't use any filter material that has been bleached.  The unbleached coffee filters works fine.

  I believe I'm correct on these points, but if not be sure to let me know.  Good Luck!

Bobby
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 06, 2018, 04:34:52 PM
 Just a couple suggestions from someone who has made lots of little frustrating mistakes myself. 

  1)  Don't rinse with alcohol, just water and DW.  Alcohol is a reducer also!

  2)  Don't use any metal to clean your anode and cathode.  Contaminates the silver on the rods!

  3)  Don't use any electrolyte at all to make your ionic silver.  It will take hours!

  4)  Don't use any filter material that has been bleached.  The unbleached coffee filters works fine.

  I believe I'm correct on these points, but if not be sure to let me know.  Good Luck!

Bobby


Thank you so much for your reply Bobby!

1. I used the diluted rubbing alcohol and DW to remove any remaining detergent from the dishwasher and then I rinsed only in DW 3times. Would using a little hydrogen peroxide be better and then rinsing?

2. I've only used a green scrubby. What should I use to then, to clean my silver?

3. I have some time today. I'm going to try!!!

4. The filters were unbleached natural brown filters. I may buy other ones. Can I use a fine mesh steel strainer? Would silicone be better?

I'm learning!!! Thanks for the patience shown to me, I really appreciate the time taken. I'm hoping to become a "Master" colloidal silver maker in time!!!

Have a great day!

Rosi
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on April 06, 2018, 04:49:45 PM
Just a couple suggestions from someone who has made lots of little frustrating mistakes myself. 

  1)  Don't rinse with alcohol, just water and DW.  Alcohol is a reducer also!
Yep.
Quote
  2)  Don't use any metal to clean your anode and cathode.  Contaminates the silver on the rods!
Very good advice.
Quote
  3)  Don't use any electrolyte at all to make your ionic silver.  It will take hours!
Yep, very slow.  Current will start at zero and slowly climb.  You can speed it up after you make the first batch by using 10% of that batch in the next batch as your electrolyte. 
Quote
  4)  Don't use any filter material that has been bleached.  The unbleached coffee filters works fine.
I use a K-cup filter which is fine mesh stainless steel.... never had a problem with that.  No one knows whats really in coffee filters, bleached or unbleached.
Quote
  I believe I'm correct on these points, but if not be sure to let me know.  Good Luck!

Bobby


Thank you so much for your reply Bobby!

1. I used the diluted rubbing alcohol and DW to remove any remaining detergent from the dishwasher and then I rinsed only in DW 3times. Would using a little hydrogen peroxide be better and then rinsing?
Only use peroxide if your glassware is stained, or mirrored.
Quote
2. I've only used a green scrubby. What should I use to then, to clean my silver?
Green plastic scrubbees are fine.  You can also clean them by putting them in a blue flame until the black coating turns white.  This re-refines the silver oxide back into pure silver.
Quote
3. I have some time today. I'm going to try!!!
Go for it.  You have the only generator that can repeatably make ionic silver without electrolytes.  It will be a little less ppm though because you will get plateout.  It will be repeatable because the SilverTron Elite does not rely on constant current to determine the shutoff point.
Quote
4. The filters were unbleached natural brown filters. I may buy other ones. Can I use a fine mesh steel strainer? Would silicone be better?
See above about reusable K-cup metal mesh filters.
Quote
I'm learning!!! Thanks for the patience shown to me, I really appreciate the time taken. I'm hoping to become a "Master" colloidal silver maker in time!!!

Have a great day!

Rosi
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Art on April 06, 2018, 06:21:09 PM
I have a question. I see that people are filtering their silver at the end of production, why is that needed? I have never seen any debris in the bottom of my finished products except for when I was experimenting and producing ionic silver and the current was above 10 ma and I was not using a stirrer.

Art
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on April 06, 2018, 07:16:49 PM
Do you have a dog?
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Art on April 07, 2018, 01:24:48 AM
No dog right now?
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Cher Sherwood on April 07, 2018, 02:01:51 AM
I was wondering about the filtering too.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 07, 2018, 03:10:40 AM
No dog here.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Bobby on April 07, 2018, 05:03:54 AM
  I learned those from Kephra.  I forgot to mention the fine mesh ss coffee filter, which I also picked up from the master.

Bobby
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: cfnisbet on April 07, 2018, 06:57:10 AM
It depends on the speed of filtering that you require, but I always use an aquarium "bubbler" stone, attached to a long piece of tubing and run it backwards. That is to say, drop the stone into the Colloidal Silver and siphon off the Colloidal Silver into your storage bottle using the plastic or silicon tube.

This is highly effective and the stone is much easier to clean afterwards, than if you run the "impure" Colloidal Silver into the stone, as the impurities fall off the stone much easier. You will need one stone for each type of Colloidal Silver that you are making, as Ionic Silver Oxide must not be filtered using the same stone as the one you use for reduced forms of Colloidal Silver.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Bobby on April 07, 2018, 12:04:07 PM
cfnisbet.

  How do you clean your air bubbler stones??  And how often??  Thanks

Bobby
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: cfnisbet on April 08, 2018, 09:45:20 PM
I force clean DW through the tube attached to the stone so that it blows the grey "dust" off the outside of the stone. The dust then drips off the stone down the sink.

So you filter from the bulk liquid out through the stone, into the plastic or silicone tube and finally it trickles out of the tube into your storage bottle.

To clean the stone, you run clean DW the other way and any insoluble matter drips off the outside of the stone. I hope I have made this clear for you, but ask if you have any further questions.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Bobby on April 09, 2018, 09:00:20 AM
cfnisbet,

  That was perfectly clear and I thank you sir.

Bobby
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Cher Sherwood on April 09, 2018, 03:50:49 PM
Curious about the dog question in this thread. I don't have a dog. But I do have a rabbit. He has free roam of the main floor in my house and is a massive shedder (he's litter trained, just so you aren't thinking I'm gross and living amongst rabbit poops. And I vacuum a lot because of his hair). Is that why the dog question was brought up? To filter out hair?
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on April 09, 2018, 03:55:42 PM
Quote
Curious about the dog question in this thread.
My dog sheds like crazy, and there are always dog hairs floating around.  So I filter to make sure no dog hairs are in my Colloidal Silver.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 20, 2018, 10:40:57 PM
The other day I tried making 320ppm capped. I'm going to include the photo but I believe it may be a fail. Very dark. Black and no light shines through.  I took 1 tablespoon and put it in 8 ounces of water and have also included the photo. To me. it looks more like 40ppm.

What could I have possibly done wrong? The only thing I noticed was that there was definitely more black on my silver in the first 1 1/2 hours than the last part of the run. The second half of the run my silver bar hardly had any dark black compared to the beginning. During the first 2 hours, my silver tron also had a little harder time maintaining the 15ma. The last hour or so it didn't jump around at all. I never changed the speed of my magnet and it never broke the water.  Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 20, 2018, 10:49:16 PM
Having the hardest time getting a jpeg to attatch.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on April 20, 2018, 11:12:34 PM
That's what its supposed to look like.  I think you had a successful run.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Cher Sherwood on April 20, 2018, 11:14:22 PM
I was told the 320 ppm (I thought it looked like 40 ppm of non-gelatine capped according to Kephra's colour samples) does look quite a bit darker because of the gelatine. I think you may have done a good job? lol I'm interested in what others will say
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on April 21, 2018, 02:12:44 AM
Amen. Thank you! Now on to making more!! lol
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Bobby on April 21, 2018, 04:55:05 AM
MomRosie,

  I second what Kephra said!  That looks like a perfect color to me. 

Bobby
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on May 10, 2018, 08:53:13 PM
I was just checking a batch I made about 3 weeks ago. 20ppm Colloidal Silver. When I looked at the bottom there were flecks of silver. I didn't notice it when i made it or I would have transferred it to another container. Is this what is considered "falling out"? Is this a fail? Does it need to be thrown out? What did I do wrong?

I can't attach a picture, it never works for me with my phone. Says the picture is too large. If someone can tell me how to get it to attach, I gladly will!

Thank you!
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on May 10, 2018, 09:07:46 PM
I was just checking a batch I made about 3 weeks ago. 20ppm colloidal silver. When I looked at the bottom there were flecks of silver. I didn't notice it when i made it or I would have transferred it to another container. Is this what is considered "falling out"? Is this a fail? Does it need to be thrown out? What did I do wrong?

I can't attach a picture, it never works for me with my phone. Says the picture is too large. If someone can tell me how to get it to attach, I gladly will!

Thank you!
Not a fail.  If its flecks, you can just filter it through a coffee filter or decant it.
There are size limits to attaching photos, 512kb.  If your photo is larger than that, you have to resize it with a photo editor or Microsoft paint.

Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 12:52:23 AM
Hi Kephra,

I'm having problems. Other than purchasing a TDS meter I have tried everything I can think of trying to make perfect silver. I will post my pictures.

These pictures were from the other day. I wanted to make 100 ppm uncapped to use for lotion.  I kept this, but I'm not sure if it's useful. I diluted it with 50% dw to make 50ppm. There was no silver residue in my jar.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 12:54:03 AM
I do not know how to resize jpeg and I uploaded them smaller. I'm not tech savvy. And no one is home to help. lol
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 12:56:19 AM
This is from today. I tried making 320ppm. I threw it out. I can only think that maybe the heat was off.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 12:58:02 AM
Again from today. I first ran the Silver Tron trying to make 160 ppm then once it completed I tried to make 20ppm at a lower voltage.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 12:59:17 AM
A second picture from the last post. It looks like a colloid was trying to form.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 01:05:02 AM
I'm now starting to believe it might be my machine. I then made 20ppm and it came out extremely light.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 01:10:19 AM
The cathode from reply #33 and #34
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 01:13:10 AM
And one more from the first pictures I posted. This would be the 50ppm looked at straight on. It doesn't look turbid here and it's not crystal clear but not cloudy looking.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on June 01, 2018, 01:48:59 AM
What did you use as a reducing agent?  Karo, maltodextrin, cinnamon extract?
How much did you use?
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 01:58:44 AM
For the first one I posted the 100 ppm I used Karo with vodka - a friend told me the Karo would not spoil if I used alcohol. I didn't keep it in the fridge but it was kept in room temp.

With everything from today, I thoroughly cleaned my bottle and dropper and made fresh Karo and distilled water 50/50.

The first batch today I used gelatin I had opened from a previous time. I opened a new package of gelatin for the second time.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on June 01, 2018, 02:05:44 AM
You should not use karo for higher than 30 ppm unless you are also using gelatin.    Try maltodextrin.
It is not a strong enough stabilizer for 100ppm
Also, when using gelatin, it may be necessary to heat it for a while after the electrolysis stops.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:01 AM

Kephra,

Thank you for your response.

I will use the maltodextrin for above 30 ppm unless capping in the future.

That explains the problem with the first batch, but what about the 3 others? I'm really at a loss.
 
The basic 20ppm is soo light. It's nowhere near a baby shampoo of gold.

How do I know if my Silver Tron is working correctly? Is there some sort of foolproof test I could do and share in a photo that would let you know if it's me or the machine?

Rosie
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on June 01, 2018, 11:19:29 AM
Quote
How do I know if my Silver Tron is working correctly? Is there some sort of foolproof test I could do and share in a photo that would let you know if it's me or the machine?
With the leads unconnected, press start, and the voltage should read about  28.
Touch the leads together, and the ammeter should read whatever you set the ma to.
If that happens then there is nothing wrong with your machine.

I think you need more Karo in your high ppm batches.
While the amount of electrolyte is always the same based on the amount of water,  the amount of reducing agent needed is proportional to the amount of silver being put into the water.
So if you use 2 drops of Karo for a 1 liter 20 ppm batch, you would use 32 drops for a 1 liter 320 ppm batch.

Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: MomRosie on June 01, 2018, 02:28:49 PM

Kephra,

I did the little test and yes leads seem fine and there is a current.

I will have time tomorrow and will make any and all adjustments to make all different strengths capped and uncapped. I will take photos.

I never bought the additional book offered . Had I bought that book would my questions been answered?

Please don't take offense, but what you think are easy and simple directions listed here in the forum, really are not. I do not have a science or tech background. And I've read through the site for hours.
There is so much unclear. Temperatures aren't listed. For example - in the guide with the Silver Tron it says to use hot dw.- how hot ?
And I followed the directions listed on page 6 of the instruction booklet to make 320 ppm. And used the gelatin, electrolyte, and reducing agents amounts listed. Because I have the bullion bar I set it to 15ma. But it does not state what voltage to try and keep the brew at.  I have used 24 as a guide because I figured if the ones using 3 -9 volt batteries are trying for 27 then 24 is probably fine.

I really love this little machine and want to get the most out of it.

Thank you for your time and help.

If anyone else has directions written out or tips I'd greatly appreciate them. You can always email me too. :)

I've sent a few of you private emails and have never heard back.

Thanks and have a great day!


Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on June 01, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
As to hot:  I run at a what cooks call a simmer.  I set my hotplate so that I get bubbles on the bottom of my flask that don't break the surface of the liquid, without my stirrer running.  That's what I do when making high ppm Colloidal Silver.  When heating to reduce in the microwave, I just run the microwave at 6 to 7 minutes for a liter.  I don't know exactly what temperature that is, but its not boiling hot.

For me to know exactly what temperature is required for different operations, I would have to make a run at 90 degrees, then one at 91 degrees etc, and I did not do that, as its unnecessary. 

As to voltage,  the minimum is always 10 volts for an electrode spacing of 1.5 inches regardless of target ppm.  If you change the electrode spacing, then the minimum voltage also changes.  There is a formula for that.  Its 4.33 volts per inch of spacing plus 3.5 volts.  So if you used a spacing of 3 inches, the minimum would be 16.5 volts.  But stick with a spacing of 1.5 inches and 10 volts.

As to the eBook, everything that is in the eBook is in the Articles section.  The book is just a printout of some of the articles, so you don't need that.

I hope that answered your questions.  Please do not hesitate to ask when you are not sure or do not understand something.

Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Cher Sherwood on June 01, 2018, 08:51:47 PM
Oh, I am now realizing I haven't been clear on volts either then. So for 20 ppm uncapped as well as 320 ppm gelatine capped, we are aiming for 10 volts?
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on June 01, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
Correct. 
Minimum target voltage depends on electrode spacing.
Electrolyte depends on water volume.
Reducing agent depends on water volume and ppm (total amount of silver dispensed in water)
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Cher Sherwood on June 01, 2018, 09:15:14 PM
I'm so glad I'm clear on this now. For some reason I was aiming for about 16 volts with 320ppm.

This has also now brought up something I did when I very first started and it's a bit embarrassing to admit because it was such a dumb thing to do. In trying to figure out how to clean the electrodes with a blowtorch without burning myself, I lifted the electrode holder with the electrodes still in place and started cleaning the small silver rod...which of course got so hot it melted the perfect predrilled hole and now I can never be completely sure of spacing because it makes the electrode using that hole floppy. I know what you're thinking...ridiculous thing to do! It absolutely was and I have no excuse for not thinking about what would happen. So, now with understanding that spacing is so important and plays such an important role with voltage, I should probably drill 2 new holes in my lid so I have nice straight holes for spacing and the electrode doesn't move with the stirring, shouldn't I?
 
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: kephra on June 01, 2018, 09:17:59 PM
Ah, its just a flesh wound, its still usable.
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: Art on June 02, 2018, 03:03:21 AM
I usually start my run around 16 volts for a 250 ml 320 ppm and don't have any problems.

Art
Title: Re: Troubleshooting
Post by: flavapor on October 02, 2019, 11:14:40 PM
This thread was extremely helpful to me!