Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Questions and Comments about Articles => Topic started by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 02:42:24 PM

Title: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 02:42:24 PM
I read everything about the making colloidal silver and i prepare a current regulator. It keep the current at 6ma not give permission to bigger. When i try the first time i used just distilled water without sodyum carbonate, there is a powerful cloudy began at the end of the positive silver just in 1 minutes.. And second try with distilled water and 10drops sodyum corbonate mix fir 500ml water. Starting is same with the first one.. A white cloud began from positive side. My resistor current is 0.01 at began and at the end of one hour all water turned white colour. I checked with ppm meter it shows 160ppm. It is not possible for our formula. I am using silver wires. I have tested them and the report is 999. After one hour the possitive silver plated something is yellow colour. And some parts of this swimming in the water.. Anybody has an idea about what was wrong. I am sharing the picture of the process.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 02:51:44 PM
+my power supply is 30volt 0.8 amphere dc and regulator limited max 6ma
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 27, 2016, 02:54:42 PM
How did you test your current limiter?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 04:09:53 PM
I connected the multimeter to end of the cable which is going to anode. i put the red mark at your schema attached.
Thanks
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 04:16:55 PM
Mr. Bill please know about i put the negative and positive silver in the water full part at the began. (not increase part by part.) because of the resistance's current is very low(0.01amphere)
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 05:43:50 PM
Where did you put the other end of the meter cable?
What resistor value did you use in the regulator?
.01 Amps is not very low,  thats 10 milliamps.

I connect one of the multimeter cable to anode silver wire and the other one is a little bit backside of the first one. As like i show you at the picture.. I think it is not 10ma. Because when i remove the silver wires from the circuit and plug multimeter to circuit and i switched the multimeter to 20mA the screen show me 6.00 and when i plug it as like the picture it shows 0.01. It means 0.01ma or i plug the multimeter wrong..
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 27, 2016, 06:11:04 PM
Well your meter is not connected correctly then.,
You should disconnect the positive silver electrode from the regulator.
Connect the red meter lead (positive) to the regulator
Connect the black meter lead to the positive electrode.

Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: Gene on February 27, 2016, 07:21:05 PM
I concur with Kephra.   You need to put the meter in SERIES between the source and load to read current. The current you're reading needs to flow THROUGH the meter too or it won't read correctly.

As stated, output of limiter to positive meter lead, negative meter lead to the anode of your cell, NO direct connection between the output of the limiter and your cell anode while you're measuring current.

Another test to make sure your limiter is working properly is to simply disconnect it from the circuit and simply put the positive meter lead on the output and the negative meter lead on ground and set the meter to measure current and power up the limiter.  With that circuit it must limit to the same current this way as when you're reading in series with your cell.

If in series with your cell you're not getting the same current it means you need more electrolyte or need to adjust the depth of the cathode to compensate (increase conductivity).

You submerge the anode in the water as far as you can (more is better).  You submerge the cathode maybe not even 1/4" (6mm or less).  With the correct amount of electrolyte (about 20 drops per liter of 1 molar sodium carbonate solution), you may even have to back the cathode out to be 2-3mm.  It all depends on what you're using for your cathode (copper wire works just fine and is cheap and easy to find - silver buys you nothing as a cathode - only for the anode as the silver comes off the anode and nothing comes off nor plates onto the cathode - at least with the proper amount of electrolyte in solution) and the total submerged surface area of the cathode.

The current limiter doesn't really help any if you're not adding electrolyte because the only way Faraday's law of electrolysis works is if the set current is flowing from the very start of the electrolysis and is then held constant throughout the whole of the run.  You can't "build up" to the set current over time because then its a crap shoot where you can't then use Faraday's law and who knows what PPM you made?  Just saying...

Do keep us posted of your progress.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 27, 2016, 10:11:24 PM
Now i exactly understand what you mean about the serial connection and current woking  prenicples.. I wil try and will  share the result. Thank you all :)
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 28, 2016, 11:59:54 AM
By the way, some time ago, a person confused baking soda with baking powder and had a similar outcome to yours.  Baking powder is not the correct substance. 
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 28, 2016, 04:13:04 PM
By the way, some time ago, a person confused baking soda with baking powder and had a similar outcome to yours.  Baking powder is not the correct substance.

Today i will bake it on your method. And if it is not mix with water again i will change the bicarbonade brand.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 29, 2016, 08:44:32 PM
I baked bicarbonate and this time it has mixed with water well.
And i find the reason of the cloud. I tested the distiled water which i used and tds meter showed about 140ppm. Can't believe my eyes the company sell the distiled water but it is as like tap water.. In my country everything is possible. Whatever, i find another distiled water which is 0 ppm and i started the electrolize by instructions..
Added 10 drops sodyum carbonate solution for 500ml water
Added full part of positive silver wire and Minimum part of negative.
I connected the multimeter serial to the positive side..
At the start of electrolize Ampheremeter shows about 2mA and i put inside the negative silver and fixed when i saw 4.80mA
But it is not stable. Allways try to go up. At the 5.3mA i taked back the negative silver and try to fix it 5mA. Again going up and i take back nagative side.. This was continued until end of 30 minutes. I stopped the electrolize on 30th minute. I added 2 drops corn syrup mix (my corn syrup is not light because there is no light syrup in my country. And another point maybe i have a mistake if 2 drops for 1 lt i should dropping 1..) and i heat it to 60celcius degree. It changed to perfectly golden yellow colour. Everything is showen good. I drink it about 10ml and it has no taste. But when i take a look with tds meter, it shows 220ppm. And there is swimming some white parts (as like silver parts but i am not sure).
At the end of this working many parts is well but i calculated about 20ppm for 30 minutes. But the results is so different. So the question is same. What was wrong?

(i added the result picture and the swimming parts picture)

Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 29, 2016, 08:52:12 PM
1) Turn on the power and touch the two silver electrodes together and see what the ammeter reads.  This is the value you should get in your electrolysis cell. Record that and turn off the power.
2) Set up your cell with water and electrolyte again.
3) Disconnect your ammeter.
4) Set your meter to volts
5) Connect the red meter lead to your positive electrode.
6) Connect the black meter lead to your negative electrode.
7) Connect your current regulator directly to the anode.
8) Turn on the power and read the voltage across your electrodes
9) Adjust your negative electrode up or down to get 10 to 15 volts
10) Time your run according to the reading you took in step 1.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 29, 2016, 09:25:30 PM
1) Turn on the power and touch the two silver electrodes together and see what the ammeter reads.  This is the value you should get in your electrolysis cell. Record that and turn off the power.
2) Set up your cell with water and electrolyte again.
3) Disconnect your ammeter.
4) Set your meter to volts
5) Connect the red meter lead to your positive electrode.
6) Connect the black meter lead to your negative electrode.
7) Connect your current regulator directly to the anode.
8) Turn on the power and read the voltage across your electrodes
9) Adjust your negative electrode up or down to get 10 to 15 volts
10) Time your run according to the reading you took in step 1.

Ok i will try this instruction. just i didn't understand the number 10.
Because i will take the amphere in step1. And i will take voltage in step 10.. How they can be same in run?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 29, 2016, 09:26:53 PM
Because in step 3 you disconnected the ammeter, you don't need it after step 1.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 29, 2016, 10:15:43 PM
Because in step 3 you disconnected the ammeter, you don't need it after step 1.

I mean, if my ammeter shows 6ma in in step1, how much volt should i wait to see at the step 10? Or you mean, set the voltage 10-15volt and wait for 30minutes and close the system thats all.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 29, 2016, 10:19:25 PM
I mean read your ammeter in step one, then compute your run time based on that reading. 

Then at the end you are going to adjust your negative electrode up or down to get 10 to 15 volts on your meter, and then start timing your run.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on February 29, 2016, 10:34:05 PM
And what do you think about the 2 drops RA for 500ml water?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on February 29, 2016, 10:44:32 PM
Thats ok. 
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 01, 2016, 05:41:26 PM
5) Connect the red meter lead to your positive electrode.
6) Connect the black meter lead to your negative electrode.
7) Connect your current regulator directly to the anode.
 Turn on the power and read the voltage across your electrodes

I think there is some mistake. Because when i parallel connect the ammeter to the circuit the voltage shows about 30V. (with water or outside of water) because i am completing the circuit on the ammeter..
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 01, 2016, 06:07:24 PM
There is no mistake.  What that shows is that your regulator does not work.
To recap:  Positive output of regulator goes to positive electrode.
Negative or ground output of regulator goes to negative electrode.
Red meter lead goes to positive electrode.
Black meter lead goes to negative electrode.
Voltmeter set to read volts

With the cell filled with electrolyte and electrodes in the water,  adjust the negative electrode up or down to get 10 to 15 volts.

What current did you read in step #1?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 01, 2016, 06:16:22 PM
I read 6.04ma at the step 1.
And this is the schema for step 7
I think i am completing the circuit with ammeter.. So screen is always shows 30v when the silvers in the water or out of water
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 01, 2016, 06:22:05 PM
I assume that the object marked 30 VDC is your regulator, not the power supply itself; is that right?



Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 01, 2016, 06:36:19 PM
At the down side of picture is my power supply (30v 800ma) and at the top of picture is my regulator has a 7805 and a resistance (r2).
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 01, 2016, 06:45:55 PM
If your power supply is 30 volts, and you regulator works and is connected properly, you should not get more than about 22 volts at your electrodes.  If you are getting 30 volts at the electrodes, something is wrong in your circuitry.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 01, 2016, 07:09:51 PM
Now i see something new. At the began of eloctrolize ammeter shows 30volt and i wait a few seconds it is coming down.. And stoped about 8volts.. The people who made the regulator said when the current is going up, the voltage is coming down at the between of electodes.. And the ammeter switch as i show at the picture..
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 01, 2016, 07:21:45 PM
Quote
The people who made the regulator said when the current is going up, the voltage is coming down at the between of electodes.
Yes, that is what is supposed to happen.  If that is happening, then your regulator is working.  You should lift you negative electrode higher out of the water to bring the voltage up between 10 and 15 volts.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 01, 2016, 07:25:34 PM
And before the electrolize i tested the ppm of 1lt water with sodium carbonate. The result is 80ppm. How i can made 20ppm Colloidal Silver at the end of 1 hour?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 01, 2016, 10:13:26 PM
20 ppm is the silver content, not the sodium content.  The only thing the TDS meter is good for is testing the quality of your distilled water.  It is meaningless for anything else. 
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: Gene on March 04, 2016, 03:37:43 AM
To restate what Kephra said a different way, there is NO piece of equipment you can buy that will read the PPM of either ionic nor colloidal silver (either at all or definitely not properly).

The ONLY way to tell what PPM you made is to use the current limiter at a fixed current and to calculate the run time based on Faraday's law, run at that current for that amount of time, shut the cell down and believe you have the target PPM (because you do!).

This is not a leap of faith. Kephra verified Faraday's law for the manufacture of ionic silver. The equation works!
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: i_vanovich on March 05, 2016, 03:11:13 AM
The ONLY way to tell what PPM you made is to use the current limiter at a fixed current and to calculate the run time based on Faraday's law, run at that current for that amount of time, shut the cell down and believe you have the target PPM (because you do!).
are deviation exist for temp variance in formulae?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 05, 2016, 03:21:51 AM
There is no temperature variation.  One electron = one atom.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: George on March 05, 2016, 06:25:02 AM
For perfectionist's that want their colloidal silver at an exact PPM I suggest they buy a colloidal silver generator like this:
 http://www.silvertronstore.com/SilverTron-Elite-Automatic-Colloidal Silver-Generator_p_12.html (http://www.silvertronstore.com/SilverTron-Elite-Automatic-Colloidal Silver-Generator_p_12.html) which ensures you of the generated result.

Then they can stop playing with current regulators, timers and how fast they can juggle between the two of them so that their timing/ppm are exact.  ;)
just a suggestion...
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: i_vanovich on March 05, 2016, 07:24:02 AM
There is no temperature variation.  One electron = one atom.
for heating water

ref: "when you put an electrolyser into hot water, the quantity of hydrogen obtained and the speed of electrolysis is higher that when you do the same test in cold water."

is table and curve to thermal differentiation?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: Gene on March 05, 2016, 07:46:33 AM
Aside from the solubility issue due to temperature, as Kephra stated, for the flow of each electron through the cell, you pull one atom of silver off the anode which then becomes silver oxide which dissolves in the water.

Temperature ONLY affects the final PPM you can achieve because silver oxide is very poorly soluble in water.

For 20PPM you really need to keep the water hotter than 75F (room temp as is stated in a lot of places is NOT 68F or anything else you might be thinking - its 75F so heat a bit above this so the cell doesn't cool down below this during the run).  For 40PPM as a top end, you really need to maintain the cell at 150F+ and that includes after the run until you reduce because if the water cools below 150F you're going to start squeezing ionic silver particles out of solution which will then NOT reduce and you'll wind up with a mix of colloidal and ionic silver which wouldn't be good.  Once reduced, temperature doesn't matter.

Obviously if you're doing constant production/reduction like using cinnamon during the run or making higher PPM using a reducing agent and gelatine during the run, other than maintaining the suggested temperature, you can go as high as you want in PPM because there's never much ionic silver in solution since its reduced as quickly as its made.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: Argentum on March 05, 2016, 02:29:07 PM
One thing I discovered about the temperature of the cell is that as the temperature increases so does the conductivity of the cell. I found that as the cell was being heated I had to pull the cathode further out of the water to maintain the cell voltage.

This is where the cell was started at room temperature and slowly heated in a double boiler to about 80*C. Was making gel capped 40 PPM colloidal silver.

Argentum
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 05, 2016, 02:44:22 PM
The pH of water decreases to pH6 at boiling.  The pOH also decreases to 6 at boiling temperature.  What this means is that there are 10 time more OH ions in the water just from the dissociation of the water molecules just due to the heat.  This does not mean that the water is more acid or more alkaline since there are the same number of additional H ions as OH.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: RickinWI on March 05, 2016, 09:33:34 PM
So that explains why hot DW makes it easier for the current to flow if you are trying to do an electrolysis using Zero Electrolyte? A lot more OH- ions in the water?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 05, 2016, 09:36:04 PM
Yes exactly, and it also explains why hot water cleans better than cold.
But there is absolutely no reason to make colloidal silver without electrolyte. 
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 08, 2016, 10:12:26 PM
At the heating process, when i see the 140 fahrenheit degree at the prob of the thermometer i stopped the heating process. And the water clean light yellow colour. But if i do not stop the heating and go over 140f degree it will be dark yellow colour.. So what is the difference between light and dark collodial? Which is the real collodial silver? Is the silver ppm's are different because of degree? Or just the mixing in the blood functions are different between light and dark colour?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 08, 2016, 10:28:05 PM
They are both colloidal silver and both the same ppm.  Heating it cannot add or take away and silver.  The hotter one is very slightly bigger or the cooler one was not fully reduced yet.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 08, 2016, 10:33:12 PM
so can we say the hotter one is more effective on the body than the cooler one?
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 08, 2016, 11:11:38 PM
No we cannot say that.  Also, I doubt there will be any difference after a day or two in the color of your two batches.
Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: atadincselim on March 09, 2016, 02:15:22 AM
I made them about 1 week ago. But no colour change in this time...

Title: Re: What was wrong
Post by: kephra on March 09, 2016, 12:39:39 PM
Interesting, I do not see that effect with mine.  Whether I heat mine at all, or boil it, I get the same result.