Author Topic: Effect of voltage on CS production  (Read 859 times)

Online Kephra

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Effect of voltage on CS production
« on: March 08, 2009, 06:42:43 pm »
Most people know of connecting 3 nine volt batteries together to get 27 volts, and most have heard that 30 volts is the best voltage.  But is this correct?  The answer is no, it is not correct.

To understand why, it is necessary to realize several things.

1 ) Some definitions and terms:
  • a) The Anode is the positively charged silver electrode. 
  • b) The Cathode is the negatively charged electrode (doesn't have to be silver).
  • c) Positively charged ions are atoms or groups of atoms which do not have enough electrons to have a stable outer electron shells, while negatively charged ions are atoms or groups of atoms which have too many electrons to have stable outer electron shells.
  • d) Electric field strength is determined by the voltage between the anode and cathode divided by the distance between them.
  • e)Ag is the chemical symbol for silver

2 ) The battery's job is to create the electric field between the Cathode and Anode.   What matters is how many volts there are from the battery divided by the distance between the electrodes.  It does this by removing some electrons from the Anode, and adding the exact same amount of extra electrons to the Cathode (initial current flow).  Electrons move to or from the electrodes until their electric field exactly cancels out the battery voltage.  Changing the distance between the electrodes changes the amount of electron surplus or deficit on the electrodes.  Initially, the electrodes behave like and actually are a charging capacitor.

If you want a formula, it would be: e = kV/d
where e= field strength, k = a constant, V = voltage, and d = distance.

3 )  The shortage of electrons on the surface of the anode facing the cathode effectively causes metal ions at the surface of the anode to be formed*.  These Ag+ ions are very reactive, meaning they want to chemically combine with something else which will restore their missing electrons.  Initially, the only negative ion which should be in distilled water is the hydroxyl ion (OH-).

4 )  The electric field forces negatively charged ions in the water toward the Anode, and positively charged ions to the Cathode.  This allows a compatible negatively charged ion (the OH in this case) to react easily with the silver atom to produce a molecule of silver hydroxide (AgOH) which floats free into the water.  When I say compatible, I mean it must produce a compound which is to some degree water soluble and ionizable. 

When the AgOH leaves the Anode, it allows the battery to remove one more electron from the Anode.

The electrical current then depends upon the number of OH- ions available and also the number of electrons removed from the Anode by the battery. This in turn depends on the voltage applied,  the distance between the electrodes and how many OH- ions have already been produced.  (It also depends upon the surface area of the electrodes, but I am assuming here that electrode size is fixed.)

5 ) Only a very tiny amount of water molecules dissociate to provide H+ and OH- ions.  This is why the CS process starts so slowly.

6 ) Once the AgOH enters the solution, it dissociates again into Ag+ and OH- ions.

7 ) The Ag+ ions are now no longer electrically neutral and thus are attracted to the Cathode while the OH- ions are again attracted to the Anode where they can grab another Ag.  Some of the Ag ions reach the Cathode where they pick up an electron reverting the Silver ion to metallic silver.  This is what creates the silver residue on the Cathode.

8 ) This process continues generating AgOH until the concentration of AgOH reaches saturation at which point it precipitates out becoming particles instead of ions.  At this point the solution will exhibit the Tyndall effect and is now a colloid.

9 ) AgOH is an unstable compound which breaks down into Ag2O (Silver Oxide) and hydrogen gas.  The amount of material, being in the ppm range does not produce enough hydrogen to actually bubble out, so you will not see this.  Silver oxide is what you make if you stick silver wires in distilled water and hook them up to a battery.  Most people call it CS but it is not. 

10) If the CS is made while the water is close to boiling temperature and/or you use a reducing agent, an additional reaction occurs which converts Ag2O to pure metallic silver.  This will have a straw yellow color which is the indicator you have made real CS.**

11)  The point of this analysis is to show how and why battery voltage alone is a meaningless parameter.  Use what you have in terms of power packs or batteries, and adjust the process by changing the spacing between the electrodes.  Personally, I like higher voltage, which allows my electrodes to be farther apart resulting in less chance for the Cathode residue to short out to my Anode.

------------
*)  This formation of metal ions on the positive terminal is the same effect that causes the copper wires on the positive post of a car battery to corrode over time, but not the negative one.  The corrosion on the positive terminal of a car battery is always a blue or blue-green color which indicates a copper compound or a reddish brown color if the battery clamp is steel.  Lead does not react readily with most anions (negative ions) but copper or iron does. 

**) Whether Silver Oxide is better or Metallic CS is better is an unresolved issue.  My personal preference is for the pure metallic CS, but apparently both are active bacteria killers.  My biggest pet peeve is that many CS producers do not correctly identify what they have made, and thus perpetuate the confusion.  If its clear and has a metallic taste, its ionic (Colloidal Silver Oxide) and should be denoted CSO.  If its yellow colored, and has no metallic taste, its real CS (metallic).

Edited to correct spelling
Kephra

whitelizard

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 06:04:12 am »
Thanks alot for this!

I've been looking for precisely this information, because I want to know exaktly what I'm doing and what is happening.

Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2011, 11:23:39 pm »
I have a question! using your method for constant current production of CS, you have stated that if you divide the current in Ma by 75 you will get the desired amount of time in minutes to produce a batch of 20ppm CS solution in 250ml of water! my question is if you are using 500 ml does the amount of time double since you would only have the same amount of silver in twice as much water effectively making the batch 1/2 as strong? and also, what if i want to calculate the time for a 40ppm solution, would then the time double again since i want twice as much silver in twice as much water? thanks so much for you help, and by the way you rock Kephara!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 11:35:00 pm by Wralyn »

Online Kephra

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 06:39:53 am »
I have a question! using your method for constant current production of CS, you have stated that if you divide the current in Ma by 75 you will get the desired amount of time in minutes to produce a batch of 20ppm CS solution in 250ml of water! my question is if you are using 500 ml does the amount of time double since you would only have the same amount of silver in twice as much water effectively making the batch 1/2 as strong? and also, what if i want to calculate the time for a 40ppm solution, would then the time double again since i want twice as much silver in twice as much water? thanks so much for you help, and by the way you rock Kephara!

The current vs time equation tells you how much silver will be liberated from the anode.  75 minutes and 1 ma liberates 5 mg of silver.  The ppm of the solution then depends on the amount of water.  5 mg of silver in 1 liter of water would be 5 ppm.  5 mg in 500ml is 10ppm etc.   So to increase the batch size, you have to increase the time, or the current proportionately.  Likewise, to double the ppm, you must run twice as long.

So, for a given size batch of a given concentration, first calculate how many mg of silver is needed, then scale the current/time formula.  This is based on Faraday's laws of electrolysis.


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Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 07:29:03 pm »
hahah ok thats what i thought but i was just making sure! that is very cool how we can calculate the exact ppm just by using a few calculations. it makes it a very predictable process that one can rely on.

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2011, 07:36:29 pm »
Just to be clear, the formula tells you how much silver is going to come off the Anode.  The amount that remains in solution will be a little less, as some of it may plate onto the cathode.  One of the good things about using sodium chloride as an electrolyte is that the sodium forms a cloud of ions around the cathode and selectively plates out, preventing much silver from reaching the cathode. 
Kephra

Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 07:42:41 pm »
ok  nice! wow im so excited about this stuff!  I am having a hard time making enough of it because everyone i know wants knows of its benefits and they all want
some! hahah I think im going to start having to make CG an CS in bulk! any thoughts on how to do this? should i just up the voltage an scale up the recipes, or is there
some sort of chemical properties that change in larger batches. Im pretty sure it doesnt but you never know, i just want to be sure!

Online Kephra

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 07:45:12 pm »
Well, when scaling up, you should also scale up the size of your electrodes.
Kephra

Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 07:50:14 pm »
ok yeah makes sense! thanks kephra! Man you really know your stuff! oh also is there a formula for calculating how much gold is liberated from the anode
for a certain amount of time?

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 08:22:58 pm »
No, gold is much harder.  The reason has to do with electrolyzing two different reactions.

With silver, both hydroxide and chloride can combine with silver anode to form silver salts, so it doesn't matter which is happening at any particular moment.  All the current goes into making CS.

With gold, there is both hydroxide and chloride in the solution, but only the chloride can combine with the gold anode to make gold salts.  So only a fraction of the current is actually making CG.  The hydroxide reaction is only producing hydrogen and oxygen gas.  I know of no way to figure out the ratio of the two processes, which are constantly changing as the sodium chloride reacts, is used up, and the sodium continually produces hydroxide.
Kephra

Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 09:14:25 pm »
So then the only way to accurately measure the ppm would be to weigh the electrodes pre- and post operation then? also is there anyway to get a stable solution of more then 50 ppm CG using the maltodextrin method and salt? 100 ppm perhaps?

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 09:18:14 pm »
Yes, you can weigh the electrodes, or compare the color depth with a known sample.
I have not found it very reliable to make CG more than 40 or 50 ppm with electrolysis.  The reason is that the process runs out of chloride, but increasing the amount of chloride makes the resultant CG less stable.  Making CG from gold chloride, I have made up to 250ppm CG using sodium carbonate and maltodextrin.
Kephra

Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 09:38:49 pm »
hmmmmmm ahhh . so the chemical method is the way to go for high ppms then?? and are these solutions stable long term. Reason being i plan to manufacture and market colloidal gold in the near term future, just working out the kinks and want to be able to offer a high concentration product for a low (but profitable ) price.the lowest price I have seen for a 50ppm solution of colloidal gold was 45 dollars, I would plan to sell mine cheaper than this so people who cannot afford such high prices, yet dont want to , or dont have the time to make it themselves can still enjoy the benefits of this wonderful substance. also just curious, have you ever researched the philosophers stone or the ability to turn base metals into Gold?

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2011, 10:03:49 pm »
I provide all my information for the home user.  I make no guarantees about the suitability of my processes for commercial use, including long term stability.  I encourage  home users to simply make it as needed.  You will have to test long term stability yourself.

Using foodstuffs for stabilizers brings along with it the chance for spoilage if strict sterilization and packaging procedures are not followed.
Kephra

Wralyn

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Re: Effect of voltage on CS production
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 10:13:59 pm »
Ahhh i see! well I Love making this stuff its just so beautiful when u make a batch and you look at the color! So i figured why not make a business out of it! but i do understand where you are coming from and it makes sense!  And I was thinking what if we added just a bit of colloidal silver to a batch of CG to add an antimicrobial property, that would eliminate the possibility of spoilage and make the solution sanitary for long term storage! And as for stability i guess i will have to do my own research! And BTW i Do Appreciate what you have created and your unique contribution through this Forum, I cant stress enough how much the information here has helped me!

 

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