Ionized Water

[Kephra]

Well, then perhaps sodium hydroxide is a miracle drug.  I am searching the articles you sent, and there is very little to support the Kangen machine as anything more than a lye generator.  The closest thing to any real difference between ordinary lye water and Kangen water is that there is a little more hydrogen gas dissolved in the Kangen water.  However, the solubility of H2 is almost nil, so it is doubtful that it makes any difference.  Also remember that until experiments are repeated and verified they are just theories.  Witness cold fusion.

I am not arguing that there is no benefit to drinking alkaline water. 

The issue here is whether there is any difference between dissolving sodium hydroxide in water to get a pH of 9, or running water through a Kangen machine to get a pH of 9.  So far, there is nothing in the literature you sent to support any difference.  How do you know that those miracle cures would not have happened using water with lye added to it?  You don't, and you cannot ignore the placebo effect.

So my suggestion is that you enjoy your machine, and continue to experiment with it.  My take is that people should be fully informed of what they are buying, without any voodoo marketing hype that is just not verified by real research.  I have explained and you can verify the commercial production of sodium hydroxide and chlorine gas.  The Kangen machine is the same process, just scaled down. 

Have you tried using Kangen water to make CS and a current regulator?  That would be an interesting experiment.

[bsilverman444]

I'm just saying, there's got to be a reason 250+ major Japanese hospitals use these machines for a whole spectrum of degenerative disease - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uJl6ZZqRU4&feature=related

The Japanese are number 2 for longevity in the world, and have a caner rate of under 1%. Is it save to assume there may be merit to all this?

I am sure there is no relationship between this machine and Japanese longevity, or cancer for that matter.

I would expect a machine sold to hospitals would be much more expensive than a home use one. There is little point to keep arguing that.

What is worth debating is whether these machines do what is claimed.

Nearly got a sample of water from one today. Will try again tomorrow.

[Kephra]

Also this one - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=PMID%3A%2014871602%20[PubMed%20-%20in%20process]

I'd like you to review the ones I sent and highlighted though, they go way more in depth.

It says: "We also demonstrated that reduced water produced by electrolysis of 2 mM NaCl solutions did not show antioxidant effects by itself."  IE:  The water alone had no beneficial effect.  The report is clear also that they did not actually use a Kangen machine, they built their own electrolysis cell.  Its probably equivalent though. 

It is interesting, but remember, test tube experiments many not work out in real life.  How does it compare to taking 1000mg of Vitamin C?  You are trying to convince me that these machines are worth over $1000.  Where is the proof, because I am not seeing it.  I see things like might, may, in vitro.  One of the reports you sent me concludes with; "If ARW is actually acting as antioxidants and protects DNA for damage, it might be hypothesized that ARW intake would be possible tgo show anticancer effect."  These statements are hardly proof of anything. 

I suggest that you design a cheap system that the rest of us can build at home for a reasonable price to experiment with.  Platinum wire is available, and that should be the most expensive part of the system.  It only needs to be batch oriented, and only the anode need be platinum.

[bsilverman444]

Also this one - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=PMID%3A%2014871602%20[PubMed%20-%20in%20process]

I'd like you to review the ones I sent and highlighted though, they go way more in depth.

Even i can tell they really arent saying anything useful.

[silverFalcon]

Any multilevel marketing is focused on maximizing profit and they don't give a damn about their customers. Amway is a perfect example of this.

[Stevie Mac]

No mention of Vit C here-

Abstract: Certain minerals can produce alkaline reduced water with high pH and low oxidation-reduction
potential (ORP) when dissolved in water. Alkaline reduced water (ARW) showed significant anticancer effect.
When B16 melanoma cells were inoculated subcutaneously and intra-peritoneally, C56BL/6 mice fed with
ARW showed tumor growth delay and the survival span was significantly lengthened. ARW also showed the
inhibition of metastasis by reducing the numbers of B16 melanoma colonies when injected through tail vein.
The amount of reactive oxygen species (ROS) was very reduced when fed with ARW except for spleen,
which is a major organ for immunity. Even for normal mice, ARW intake invoked systemic cytokines, such
as, Th1 (IFN-g, IL-12) and Th2 (IL-4, IL-5), suggesting strong immuno-modulation effect. Both ROS
scavenging effect and immuno-modulation effect might be responsible for anticancer effect of alkaline
reduced water.

Source:(Kyu-Jae LEE1,2, Seung-Kyu PARK1,2, Jae-Won KIM1, Gwang-Young KIM1, Young-Suk RYANG5, Geun-Ha
KIM 1, Hyun-Cheol CHO3, Soo-Kie KIM2,3, and Hyun-Won KIM2,4 1 Dept. of Parasitology, 2 Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, 3 Dept. of Microbiology, 4 Dept. of Biochemistry, Wonju College of Medicine, Yonsei Univ. ( Wonju , Korea) 5Dept. of Biomedical Laboratory Science and Institute of Health Science, College of Health Science, Yonsei Univ. ( Wonju , Korea)

"Ray Kurzweil was inducted in 2002 into the National
Inventors Hall of Fame, established by the U.S. Patent
Office.
He received the $500,000 Lemelson-MIT Prize, the nation's
largest award in invention and innovation. He also received
the 1999 National Medal of Technology, the nation's highest
honor in technology, from President Clinton in a White
House ceremony.
He has also received scores of other national and
international awards, including the 1994 Dickson Prize
(Carnegie Mellon University's top science prize), Engineer
of the Year from Design News, Inventor of the Year from MIT, and the Grace Murray Hopper Award
from the Association for Computing Machinery. He has received twelve honorary Doctorates and
honors from three U.S. presidents."

If any of you are interested in what this man has to say about how intrinsic Alkaline Water is for our health, send me your Email address and I'll send you the PDF.

SilverFalcon - Network Marketing isn't a pyramid scheme, the IMF is, and no, profit margins are still the same bud.

[Stevie Mac]

P.S. Cold Fusion can be considered more than a theory now - http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4955212n

[Kephra]

Something that is on CBS news makes it a fact?

When I read about it in a bona fide physics journal and see a reproducible working prototype that does not need any energy input, then I will consider it a fact.  It may be a fact someday, but not yet.

[Kephra]

Lets sum up a bit:

1) There is a machine which electrolyzes water to produce alkaline water from salt water.  This fact is not in question as it is the standard commercial method of producing sodium hydroxide and chlorine gas.

2) Health claims are made for water processed by this method.  The health benefits are claimed to be from A) Alkalizing the body, and B) from some antioxidant properties of the water.

3) Stevie Mac has made first hand observations of the health effects.  Since I believe Stevie to be a sincere and honest forum member, I do not doubt his observations.

4) Some of the published research says that the water alone is not beneficial vis a vis antioxidants, and other says it is beneficial on its own.  Repeatability and reproducibility of results is very important in science, so these claims must be questioned.

5) Some of the researchers hypothesize that reactive hydrogen atoms from the cathode are responsible for the health benefits.  Considering the extremely low solubility of hydrogen in water, this seems unlikely but not impossible.

Does that cover the points?

Now for some hypothetical questions:

1) If the benefits come from hydrogen atoms generated at the cathode, then wouldn't CS made with electrolysis have the same benefit? Does CS made by electrolysis work better than CS made by reduction of silver salts?  How about CG made by electrolysis vs. CG made from chemical reduction of gold chloride?

2) The commercial machine has to use platinum electrodes because that is the only metal that won't form a chloride at the anode.  So if another electrolyte is chosen along with distilled water, perhaps a different anode material could also work.  As it happens, chloride is the only anion that will react with gold in an electrolysis cell, so using a different electrolyte, would it not be possible to use a gold electrode?  Sodium carbonate would be a good first choice.

3) Is the membrane necessary if we don't care about producing acid water?

[Stevie Mac]

Something that is on CBS news makes it a fact?

When I read about it in a bona fide physics journal and see a reproducible working prototype that does not need any energy input, then I will consider it a fact.  It may be a fact someday, but not yet.

HA! No, quite the contrary. I believe CBS is an acronym for See Bull Shit, but still.

So when the Vice Chancellor of Research of the American Physical Society who is an expert at measuring energy went from "I thought cold fusion has been debunked" to "I found that the work done was carefully done, and the excess heat as I see it now, is quite real" All he has to do is write it down and have it published for it to actually become meaningful to you? Not to mention DARPAS analysis "no doubt that anonymous access heat is produced". I obviously can't discern or debate, but when professional first hand testimony from a man held in high regard in that particular industry goes on national television and contradicts himself after being presented the evidence, I have to take notice. We have to stop and think, maybe this science would be suppressed to preserve the entire energy industry as we know it. Just like J.P. Morgan squashed funding Tesla in 1902 with his earth battery and wireless energy towers. And just like the dozens of Cancer cure case studies and literature I've come across on databases like Orthomolecular.org (Linus Paulings work) is black listed from the AMA, you have to wonder if the same vested interest/politics are involved with keeping the lid on these energy breakthroughs..

Personally I think we should get back in line with Tesla and Townsend Browns discoveries. I actually met a man last night at a show I played who is developing  a magnetic resonance device based off Tesla technology. He tells me there are at least 300 people who have filed for patents but they are seized under the National Security Act, yet another example of government impeding progress. 

[Kephra]

People can say or do anything they want, but to be published in a peer reviewed physics journal lends a much higher level of credence to the subject.  So yes, I will wait for the publication. 
The number one job of any scientist is to be skeptical.

Reading scientific stuff is a lot like reading legal stuff.  Every word means something, and often not what you think.   Do you think he said "as I see it now" for no purpose?  His statement does not say the excess heat is real.  He said he believes it to be real at the moment.  That is not the same as saying it is real.  As a scientist, he is retaining his skepticism as he should, because no one is exempt from being fooled or making a mistake.

I have been watching zero point energy claims, cancer cure claims, 200 mpg carburetor claims, water powered car claims etc all my life, and they never materialize.  All of them were just scams to get suckers to invest their money in pipe dreams, and when the money is all spent, the new invention quietly disappears. 

[bsilverman444]

If its that difficult, and if i eventually does work, it will probably cost more than its worth anyway.

[Stevie Mac]

People can say or do anything they want, but to be published in a peer reviewed physics journal lends a much higher level of credence to the subject.  So yes, I will wait for the publication. 
The number one job of any scientist is to be skeptical.

Reading scientific stuff is a lot like reading legal stuff.  Every word means something, and often not what you think.   Do you think he said "as I see it now" for no purpose?  His statement does not say the excess heat is real.  He said he believes it to be real at the moment.  That is not the same as saying it is real.  As a scientist, he is retaining his skepticism as he should, because no one is exempt from being fooled or making a mistake.

I have been watching zero point energy claims, cancer cure claims, 200 mpg carburetor claims, water powered car claims etc all my life, and they never materialize.  All of them were just scams to get suckers to invest their money in pipe dreams, and when the money is all spent, the new invention quietly disappears.

I understand. I've been researching Etymology and Common Law for the past few months. Along with Pro Se Litigation techniques.

Some of the most up to date documentaries on the Cancer subject are "The Bursynski Movie - Cancer is a Serious Business" "The Beautiful Truth" "Food Matters" and the Royal Rife Documentary, the inventor of Universal Prismatic Microscope, the most powerful microscope of his time. All of these documentaries you can find on YouTube for free. The Bursynski movie shows how these "objective" scientist and regulators go to great lengths to silence new self empowering information, refusing to publish independent studies that will replace the old industries ideologies (and profit). It is frustrating, and i highly suggest watching it.   

My favorite online medical journal is www.OrthoMolecular.org its based on Linus Paulings work, i'm sure you're familiar with him. Also Dr.Saul is one of my favorites too, he runs www.doctoryourself.com and is great at taking complex biology and condensing it into laymen's terms articulating remedy to "incurable" disease. He also talks about how the AMA refuses to index his teams literature, another reason why we might not of seen "proof" of cold fusion, assuming the energy industry is as violently self preserving as conventional medicine is. "Simply Raw - Reversing Diabetes in 30 Days" is a great one too. 

I'm off to Michigan for the weekend, talk to you all on Monday.

Edited by Kephra to fix link to doctoryourself.com

[Kephra]

Have a safe trip.  Talk to you Monday then.